“I got back the best reviews I’ve ever had.” — Case study with Dr Liv Hoversten [Blog + Video podcast]

(If video isn’t being displayed, please enable cookies.)

This blog post is based on my podcast interview with Dr Liv Hoversten, a member of the Researchers’ Writing Academy. To listen or watch the podcast, click play on the YouTube video above or listen to the episode on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. 

Today I’m talking to Dr Liv Hoversten who has been a member of the Researchers’ Writing Academy for — I just checked — four years. She’s now even hosting some co-writing sessions for us inside the program! So hello Liv, welcome to the Researchers’ Writing Podcast.

Navigating New Parenthood While Being a New Assistant Professor: Why Liv Joined our Scientific Writing Course

Thanks for joining us, Liv. Do you want to start by telling us what your research position is, where you’re based, anything you want to share about your research?

Sure. I am an assistant professor at the University of California in Santa Cruz, and I am in the psychology department, studying cognitive science and psycholinguistics. Specifically my research is on bilingual brains and I study how bilinguals are able to juggle the use of more than one language, how they’re able to figure out which language to use at any given time or switch to the other language, how they process language switches and so forth. What happens to one language when you’re using the other language and so forth. And we use eye tracking and electroencephalography, which is a fancy way to say brain waves, to study these things.

That’s so interesting. I have had the privilege to learn more about your research on our Feedback Calls. So four years ago you enrolled in the Researchers’ Writing Academy. What made you decide to join?

I have to think back and remember four years ago. My goodness, I can’t believe it’s been so long.

I mean, time flies. I don’t know, like I feel like — I mean, the pandemic just swallowed whole years so it feels.

It really did. Yeah. So I guess that’s part of it, kind of coming sort of out of pandemic. We were still kind of in pandemic mode a little bit, but the peak of it was over. I was a pretty new Assistant Professor. I also had an infant, so I was a new mother — just a lot of new things adjusting to in life and trying to figure out how do I gain my footing in this new life that I have without a lot of excess time to sit around on nights and weekends playing around with papers and data and things like that. So that was part of the motivation.

So you had some inherent sense, like ‘oh, this is a good product’, or ‘this isn’t yet good writing’?

Exactly. I could tell like, I’m not there yet — I’ll know it when I see it. And then when I got to that point, I was like, OK, now it’s good, we’re good. But getting there was just really difficult and it took a long time. Being in that kind of position, having the new kid, all of that sort of thing — I knew I didn’t have the time and the space to keep up with that process. And so I think what most appealed to me about the Researchers’ Writing Academy was that idea that there’s this Journal Publication Formula that you can go through. It’ll give you a process, step by step, that you can get to that finished product at the end.

How the Researchers’ Writing Academy Transformed Liv’s Academic Writing Practice

So now going into how the Researchers’ Writing Academy has helped you and how you were able to change that way of writing — can you share your wins with us? I want to talk about the big things that changed for you, but I’m really interested in the small tweaks as well that are easy to forget but actually may have a really big effect. We always tend to forget about these, so I want to highlight them.

Right, yeah. I think on the smaller tweak side, the community has been such a big part of my experience and the reason why I’ve continued to renew and be a part of the community, even though I’ve been in it long enough that I know the Journal Publication Formula now. But the community aspect is so helpful. There are weekly accountability posts, monthly planning and quarterly planning, co-writing calls and so forth. And the writing sprints are amazing. So all in all, just having that kind of community support and scaffolding has helped me little by little shift my writing practice to be so much more sustainable and steady over time.

I know a lot of places say you need to write every day and you need to write for 30 minutes every day, and I’ve discovered that just does not work for me at all.

That doesn’t work for me either.

If I miss a streak, it messes me up. And just 30 minutes is just not enough for me to get into the groove of something. But I also realise I can’t just go through a whole term and then get to the end and have nothing to show for it and be scrambling at the end, trying to write.

And so the support inside the Researchers’ Writing Academy has helped me integrate at least a little bit of writing in each week and kind of keep touching projects and keep them moving forward over time in a way that seems kind of subtle. There’s no end point to celebrate of, ‘oh, now I’ve reached perfection on this routine’. But over time I’ve noticed a lot of shifts to goal setting and planning and then having that little-by-little steady progress throughout the term, with these more focused multiple-day retreats or sprints mixed in to really make a lot more progress and push something forward.

That’s really cool. Okay, so you’ve completely shifted your writing practice from writing in big pushs at the end of the semester to writing almost every day. That’s not even a small tweak, I would say! What do you count as your big result?

How Liv got praise from peer reviewers thanks to the Journal Publication Formula

In terms of bigger wins, having that structured writing process there to help me has really paid off a lot. The last paper that I published as a first author, I really used the Journal Publication Formula start to finish. This paper had frustrating circumstances, it got interrupted by the pandemic, it was from my postdoc, and then I changed institutions. It was like this big mess to try to figure out. But having the Journal Publication Formula and the community really helped me keep at it and push to the finish.

Everyone has a paper like this. I think everyone has this paper from the postdoc or PhD they’re trying to get out, and it is extra challenging.

Amazing.

It was incredible. And it was kind of like that for the discussion too. And then I submitted. It took a while to get some reviews back, but I got the best reviews I’ve ever had in my life from this. The reviewers had all this praise about the clarity and everything, and very few suggestions of what they wanted to change. I did a few quick revisions and then it got accepted right away. I definitely chalk that up to the Journal Publication Formula — I had my story straight, I had it all written out, it was structured well.

I got the best reviews I’ve ever had in my life. After a few quick revisions it got accepted right away! I definitely chalk that up to the Journal Publication Formula, I had my story straight and it was structured well.

That’s fantastic. The process of writing the paper was streamlined, and then you also got great peer feedback. It’s so rare to actually get praise in peer review!

I know. I need to frame that on my wall.

Note from Anna: If you got curious about the Researchers’ Writing Academy, I recommend watching our free training class (it’s free and takes about 1 hour). It’s the same training that helped Liv get to the best review she ever had. 👇🏻

 

---

How Co-Writing Is the Foundation of Liv’s Academic Writing Practice

I mentioned this in the beginning, you have recently started to lead some of the co-writing sessions and mini retreats that we have inside the Researchers’ Writing Academy. Just for those who are listening who don’t know what our mini retreats are: It’s a 3-hour block of structured co-writing that we offer 4-5x/month currently, where we get a bit deeper down into writing than in our typical 1-h co-writing sessions. We have two 50-minute sessions and one 30-minute session, and we do goal setting in the beginning and a meditation as well as guided breaks. I want to talk about co-writing a little bit now. What makes it work and what difference has it made to you?

Well, it’s made all the difference in the world, for sure. I think that is one of the strongest aspects of the scientific writing program. There was a time when there were fewer writing sessions that worked for my time zone and my schedule, and my writing would just fall off completely. So having those there and that structure — there’s something about having it in your calendar as an appointment that you know other people are going to be joining. It just makes it easier to follow through on, even more than if you put it in your calendar as “I’m going to sit down and write during this hour.” Other things can creep in or, you know, whatever else.

I know everybody is. But yes, I’m definitely guilty.

Shifting Beliefs: Embracing a Steady, Sustainable Writing Pace

Speaking about this — being realistic with your time — in what way does having an actual realistic goal help?

I think it helps reduce some frustrations or feeling like I’m not good enough, I’m not doing enough, I’m not fast enough. Because you just realise you’re just going to go at the pace you’re going to go, and maybe you can find tools or things to help you be faster. But on the whole, it’s better to just predict what you’re going to do and be able to go along with that more or less, instead of saying I’m going to do four things in this hour and then you end up doing half of half of one of them. And then you’re frustrated and beating yourself up afterward. And that just isn’t productive at all.

Yeah, that also messes up the whole plan. You just have to keep re-planning after every session.

Exactly. It just kind of helps you plan a little bit better, plan out how much you can realistically get done in this amount of time.

That makes sense. So was there any belief that you had that you had to shift before things started to work or started to click?

Probably the belief that I’ve worked on the most — and I’m still working on — is kind of the belief that I’m too slow, that I work too slowly and I need to speed up and I need to go faster and I need to get more things done in less time. I’ve been working on that. And through this structure and accountability — and I don’t mean it to be like accountability of “we’re going to get on you if you don’t do things right.” It’s more of a supportive community in that way. But that structure has really helped me be a little bit more steady in that work and a little bit more predictable. And I think that really does help with those worries that you’re being too slow, because you realise, “OK, I am making steady progress little by little”. It may not be as much as I’d like or as fast as I’d like, but that doesn’t mean I’m not doing things. And over time it accumulates and you start to see, “oh OK, I am submitting papers, I am getting more things done.” But it just takes time to get into that more steady, sustainable pace — instead of doing a bunch and then you’re tired and then you stop, take a break. Or “I’m so busy with teaching, I can’t possibly fit in an hour of writing or something like that.” It just kind of helps steady the pace more.

Yeah, it’s really interesting because we tend to kind of overestimate how much we can get done in a short time frame, but underestimate how much we actually can get done in a longer time frame. So when we look back over the last year you’ll see, “oh, I actually did do all these things”. But in the moment, it doesn’t feel like very much is moving. I think this is one of those weird psychological limitations our brains have.

Yeah, time perception is so strange for sure.

Something that helps me is this mantra of “go slow to go fast.” I guess also, as you experience it, you understand — you have to feel it and experience it for it to really be anchored in your body, in your mind, so you trust it.

Yeah, for real. You finally experience that steady pace of, OK, I can trust the pace.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s a lot about trust, actually, isn’t it? Trust in yourself, trust in the process. And for that, you just do need to experience it.

Exactly.

The Wider Impact of Knowing the Journal Publication Formula: Equipping Grad Students with (Academic) Writing Skills

You also mentioned to me that you are using the Journal Publication Formula not just for your own writing, but also with your lab, with the people you work with. Do you want to share more about that?

Yeah, so I’ve been teaching my grad students some of the process. I think I had a kind of similar issue as with my own writing, but seeing it in my students: they would submit some draft of something and I could tell, “no, that’s not right”. But I didn’t have the language to say why or exactly what was wrong with it. It would just be like, “no, try again”. And I just had such a hard time really articulating exactly what it was that I was looking for. It was that same “I’ll know it when I see it” issue.

And I’d also get really hung up when they’d give me a draft knowing what to pay attention to. Do I pay attention to the story or the structure or individual paragraphs or individual sentences? And I’d get caught up in editing some grammar when really I knew that the bigger issue was more of a structural problem, but I couldn’t articulate why. And I didn’t have a good process for them to go through.

It’s been really helpful in teaching them a process of how to write. Because also, grad students — any students — don’t really know how to write. You just sit down the night before and go, oh my gosh, this is due tomorrow. Type type type type type and then you submit something. That’s the student way of doing things, right? And so having some sort of step-by-step process that you go through to produce something professional is really helpful.

Yeah, they must have appreciated that as well, having some guidance. Did you get any feedback from them?

I think they’ve really, really enjoyed it. They said, “oh my gosh, now I kind of know what to do”. And so hopefully this kind of pays off in the long run too, that they’re able to step through this in each of their manuscripts.

Yeah. Because we get a lot of PhD students who join the program as well who just don’t get that guidance. They come to us complaining that their supervisor is just saying “this isn’t right” without telling them exactly what to do. And that’s really frustrating! So that’s so great that you are able to teach them a writing process now! For them it will be a really great skill to leave a PhD with — whether or not they want to continue in academia, that will be useful.

Yeah. It’s useful in just figuring out how to structure your thoughts in a logical way, in a way that you can communicate with other people on even more of an emotional level. That’s part of the storytelling idea — people latch onto stories, and so if you can tell it in a story, they’re going to remember it a lot better.

For sure. I mean, honestly, I think communicating in stories is almost the only way to communicate. Seriously — it’s just the way we work. We can’t care about something that we don’t have any connection to. So you first need to get someone’s attention, capture them with something that interests them, before you can give them the new information that you want to give them.

Absolutely, yeah.

Well, very, very glad to hear it’s been so useful in the work with your grad students. What would you tell someone who is in the same situation that you were in before you joined?

Quick note before you read Liv’s answer: If you want to know more about the Journal Publication Formula, the method that helped Liv be a great mentor to her students, I got you. I created a whole training that’ll show you exactly what’s included in our academic writing program and help you decide whether it’s the right choice for you.

Just click the orange button below to watch it now (or save for later)!

How To Prioritise Academic Writing When There Are Not Enough Hours in The Day

Well, first I’d tell them to join the Researchers’ Writing Academy because it’s so helpful — I’m a believer, hands down, for sure. But at any rate: get some sort of support. Even if you don’t join the Academy, finding some sort of community of support. Because doing it alone is just…

Too hard.

I don’t know. It’s really hard to figure out. You have so much — I mean, the beauty of the job is that you have so much flexibility and independence and autonomy in figuring out your schedule and what you’re going to do and how you’re going to structure things. And yet you have this weight of so many different responsibilities in so many different areas. You feel like you’re wearing ten different hats at all times. And sometimes you’re just kind of lost in figuring out what is important, where do I spend my time, how do I structure my time — in a way that you don’t have when you’re in grad school or as a postdoc. So finding some sort of community support and that structure for yourself would be, I think, my biggest piece of advice.

For me, thanks to the Journal Publication Formula, when I get to the Discussion section, I’m super invested in writing all about the implications. I love it, because I’ve been thinking about them throughout. Before, I hadn’t done that, and that shift feels really notable.

A lot of the Assistant Professors — and also Associate Professors — often tell us: “I would love to join, but I just don’t have the time for the program.” What would you say to them?

I always think, “oh, I’m going to get all these letters of recommendation done in advance”, and then they always end up coming down to the deadline. But you know what? That’s fine. That’s what it is. As long as I get it in by the deadline, it’s fine. Because what I need to do is prioritise my research and my writing. That ultimately is what is going to get me tenure and help me keep the job.

It’s really always about prioritisation. I feel like in almost everyone’s job there’s always more things to do than we have time for. I’m playing this game daily of, OK, priorities — I just can’t get it all done. I just need to see what are the most important things for this week, for this day, for this hour.

And that’s hard because important by what standard? Like, is it because it’s urgent? Is it because there’s going to be some dire consequence? Why is this one important? They all seem important. I have five things I need to get done today that are all going to take me four hours and that’s not going to happen.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is why we’re doing so much planning in the Researchers Writing Academy, because it’s just so powerful. I think we need to do so much planning basically to be able to work on the right things. Because otherwise — and I know this for myself — it’s so easy to just open your laptop and go straight in and just go with the flow. You read Slack messages, you read emails, and there’s always stuff to do. And I guess we’ve all had those days where we kind of just follow the flow and then at the end of the day we’re feeling really drained, but we haven’t written, we haven’t produced anything. And you ask yourself, “what have I actually done today?“

This is why in the Researchers Writing Academy we are putting a lot of emphasis on this, “OK, let’s step back, let’s look at it, let’s prioritize what does need to get done in a certain time frame”.

Right, exactly. And that comes back to that realistic time planning as well. OK, I’m going to do five big things today, it’s going to be fine. And then you get to the end of the day and you’re like, I didn’t get them done. I only got one thing done and now I’m in trouble for tomorrow. But if you really realistically think about it beforehand, you say, actually there’s no way I’m getting these things done. What actually needs to be done today, what can be done tomorrow? And you have that kind of realistic plan set forward. It really helps avoid some of those dire consequences when you don’t get things done that need to be done.

Is there anything else you would like to share that I haven’t asked?

I think we’ve gotten through most of it. I just have to say:

The Researchers’ Writing Academy has been so helpful and so worthwhile and I plan to stay a part of it. So thank you, Anna, for putting this together.

If you’re ready to get the best reviews back you’ve ever had, co-write papers with your grad students in a streamlined way, and build a regular writing routine that gets you published consistently, then you should join the Researchers’ Writing Academy today.

---